D2's heresies, the John 14:6 conundrum
Dec. 20th, 2005 06:00 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
greybetaOne of the basic tenets of the conservative Christian faith is that Jesus is the only way to heaven. You must accept Christ and only Jesus Christ into your heart in order to be saved from the fires of hell. Jesus Christ came down to earth, was crucified, and rose from the dead three days later. Jesus shed his blood for the remission of our sins. Christ is part of the Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost (hey, I read KJV). Three in one, and one in Three. Christ broke the old covenant to create a new covenant in which all we had to do was ask forgiveness for his name. Simply confess our sins and we shall be forgiven. However, we must earnestly ask for forgiveness. Otherwise, God knows we are lying and will convict us of our sin. We owe this second chance to the immaculate conception of the Virgin Mary. That's the Christ part of Christmas (the mas part is always yearning for mas presents, if you know what I mean).
On this day a Savior was born. The one and true Savior, who would lead us on the one true and righteous path. How do we know that Jesus Christ is the only way to enter the gates of heaven. Why, it says so in the good book, in John 14:6.
5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
I always found it fascinating that Thomas would be the disciple to question Jesus about the one and true righteous path. You knew a guy like that would have to see the wholes in Jesus's wrists and feet to believe in Christ's resurrection. But let's look at the question part by part. First, Thomas addresses Jesus by the title "Lord". You know, as in the good Lord helps those who help themselves. The Lord of all creation, the Lord Almighty, and the Lord of our lives. Thomas freely chose to admit Jesus was his Lord, his Savior. I would hope to think that we would all do the same in the presence of Christ.
Now to the second part of Thomas's question. "We don't know where you are going." Hmmm, what is the context of that? For the answer, we have to go back to John 13:1. "1It was just before the Passover Feast. Jesus knew that the time had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he now showed them the full extent of his love." Ah, before Thomas's question, there was the Lord's Supper. Judas Iscariot had left the table, on his way to betray Jesus. Jesus informs Simon Peter that the Rock will deny Jesus three times before the cock crows. Jesus then broke the bread and poured the wine. Jesus then tells his disciples that he has prepared a place for them, and that his disciples knew where he was going. Except, doubting Thomas had no idea where his Lord was going. So he did what all good doubters think to do: They ask the question.
Thomas: How can we know the way?
Jesus: By knowing me.
Jesus: I am the way
Jesus: the truth
Jesus: and the life.
Jesus: No one comes to the Father but through me.
Jesus: If you really knew me,
Jesus: you would know my Father as well.
Jesus: From now on,
Jesus: you do know him and have seen him.
Once Thomas speaks up, Phillip does too. And this leads to John 15, one of the most brilliant passages in the Bible (and the source of the MasterLife Bible Study). You see, there always has to be that first person to ask the question to open up the discussion. I often found that I was that person in the BSU, saying exactly what was on everyone's mind. Except, it gets taxing to always be looked upon to come up with the contrarian view. It's not that I mind doing that, it's that I get tired of people misunderstanding me.
I DO NOT REVEL IN ALWAYS BEING THE FIRST ONE TO SPEAK OR ASK A QUESTION!!!
Ok, random digression time. There was this one leadership team meeting we had in the BSU. I came in late so I missed the crucial first five minutes where our director told us in no uncertain terms that we had disappointed him. The previous meeting, we had discussed what we wanted the FOCUS lunch to be, our weekly Wednesday gathering. A lot of people felt like we had ironically "lost focus", as only believers came to FOCUS. Our leadership team hit the nail on the head: The lunch was designed for believers, not for nonbelievers. What I am saying is that coming to a lunch to hear some random guy speak after a meal smacks of church. And the reason most nonbelievers don't go the church is because they had a bad experience in church. Our leadership team understood that we had to change to a more lightweight message just to draw people in and then share the message at a Bible study or something.
Our director is a fabulous man. Let me get that straight, I respect the man a lot. That's because he's a lot like me. He didn't grow up in a traditional Christian household and he didn't get saved until he was in college. His pursuit of a Christlike woman led him to accept Christ as his Lord and Savior. He speaks well and knows how to get things done. He's been willing to answer my most penetrating questions. He knows how to have a good time and when to stop the party. He's really an awesome guy.
But our director's also like me in that we share one flaw: We think we are right, and everyone else is wrong (this leads to some interesting conversations). And in this case, our director believed that FOCUS should be focused on God. He basically told us that there would be no weak@$$ messages in the BSU. We should not be afraid to share the good news of Christ. To not do so would be heresy. He expected us to understand that. And this is where I come in.
Our director asked us, does anyone have a problem with that? Silence. Dead Silence. Dead, uncomfortable silence. Dead, uncomfortable, oh-God-please-someone-speak-up silence. Dead, uncomfortable, oh-God-please-someone-speak-up, let's-all-shift-our-eyes-towards-D2-and-hope-the-confident-pessimist-speaks silence. Fine, you cowards. I'll say something.
D2: I'm not exactly sure where you are coming from Steve.
Steve: Alright, Daniel, speak up.
D2: Let me play a little devil's advocate here. You want us to stay focused in FOCUS?
Steve: Yes, I want you to remember that we are to focus on God and spreading the gospel.
D2: Hmmm, okay I understand that in the abstract. But could you make that more concrete for me?
Steve: Well, for example, we should be filling up the BSU every FOCUS. Our leaders should be inviting lost friends every week. If our leaders did that, other people would pick up the cue and do the same thing. We have more than enough power to field twice the number of people (I believe it was sixty) we are now.
D2: I see, that is a good vision to have. But, I have a concern. What if I ask someone to FOCUS to go to lunch with me, but then they hate me because I "tricked" them into going to a church type thing?
Steve: Just be straightforward. Say you want to invite them to a lunch and that there will be a short devotional at that time. Anybody would understand that hint. If they do not want to come, they will just say no. Then at least you know you have done God's will.
D2: Hmmm, okay. That makes it much more concrete for me.
Steve: Any other questions? No? I think Daniel probably asked the questions that were on all of your minds. Thank you for speaking up Daniel. Remember, the one who is in us is greater than the one who is in this world. In Jesus Christ we have victory.
The thing was, that's not what I really wanted to say. I really wanted to say that while Steve did make it more concrete, he was wrong. My comrades on leadership team had told him that the current format was not going to work. And yet, FOCUS was not going to change from its lunch and Bible message format. I knew then that FOCUS was not going to change to suddenly attract nonbelievers. God just does not work like that. Perhaps, right there and then, D2 realized he was a bit of a heretic as he understood the psychology of nonbelievers. Maybe D2 didn't believe in God himself anymore that day. Or maybe D2 was just being pessimistic and trying to create a self fulfilling prophecy that FOCUS would fail to attract nonbelievers.
Only God knows.
Back to John 14:6, is Jesus the only way? Yes. If you believe the Bible is God's Word, you must accept the fact that Jesus is the only way. No. There is no arguing that. There is, however, room for interpretation. Huh? D2, it's pretty much black and white. Thomas asked the question, Jesus gave the answer. Thomas asked how to get to heaven, and Jesus replied that Jesus himself was the only way. D2, don't you think it's obvious what the only way to get to heaven is?
I ask you this, then. What did Jesus say the greatest commandment was? The first and greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. What about the second greatest commandment? Love your neighbor as yourself. Very good, you read your Bible often.
Now, um, where did it say that Jesus was the only way again? Oh, look, it didn't. No, you can contrive the two greatest commandments to fit the philosophy that Jesus is the only way, but that type of reasoning fails to my superior logic. What I am saying is there's a reason Jesus Christ focused on those two particular commandments.
You know, in the MasterLife Bible study I learned what it meant to be a true disciple of Christ. You must first deny yourself, then take up your cross, and follow Christ daily. The first part is rejecting who you are, so that Christ can take control. Taking up your cross means being willing to suffer the slings and arrows of the world when you do proclaim your faith in Christ. The third means to remain in God's Word and pray everyday. I also learned how to give my testimony. In giving our testimony, we are to avoid churchy words like "walked down the aisle" or "saved" or "Jesus is my Savior". Why? Those words fail to resonate with those outside the church. Enter the mind of a nonbeliever and ask what he or she wants to know. He or she wants to know about how a believer lived before and after the accepted Christ. If they see that a believer reveals Christ, then they will be opened up to receive the Word of God.
MasterLife also dealt with the relationships between believers. For one thing, the male-female relationships were always tricky. Does this girl like me because she answered a question about the Bible when I was most vulnerable to the attacks of Satan? Or was she just being nice and playing the role of good Christian sister? It's probably the latter, but isn't she awfully cute when she's explaining how to admonish a Christian brother who has fallen away from his faith? We admonish one on one, but if that doesn't work we must bring a friend. If two or three does not work, more friends need to be brought. And if that is not enough, the whole church community must be called upon to admonish him. If that does not work, only God can save him then. Perhaps God will have to send an angel his way to correct his course.
Let me make an obvious statement. A disciple of Christ believes that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven. I honestly think that is a necessity for a disciple of Christ. If you do not believe that, you cannot call yourself a disciple of Christ. I consider myself a disciple of Christ, yet I am a heretic. How can that be?
I believe that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven for those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior. Once you accept Jesus Christ as your Divine Savior, you must believe Jesus is the only way to heaven. I truly believe, as a disciple of Christ, that Jesus is the only way to Heaven. BUT, and this is a big BUT, that's not the most important thing. It's not, because Jesus said so himself. It is more important for people to love God, even a false god, as long as they acknowledge him. Secondly, it is very important to treat your neighbors kindly, that is to be tolerant of one another. We all have to live together, so we all might as well live together peacefully.
You see, the fact that Jesus is the only way to heaven is a very small matter, very trivial. It would be like knowing that there are 66 books in the Bible. It would be like knowing who Rahab is in the Bible. It would be like understanding that there is an Apocrypha to the Bible and knowing that the Council of Nicea made the Bible what it is today. Thomas and I care about the little things, because the little things matter to us. We're just brave enough to admit that and ask our Lord and Savior those trivial questions. Think of any normal conversation, you first ask how someone is doing. Fine. Then the second question is inevitable what they are up to? If you're like me, your most common answer is "not much." And that is precisely the point.
Saying Jesus is the only way to heaven is not saying much at all.
On this day a Savior was born. The one and true Savior, who would lead us on the one true and righteous path. How do we know that Jesus Christ is the only way to enter the gates of heaven. Why, it says so in the good book, in John 14:6.
5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
I always found it fascinating that Thomas would be the disciple to question Jesus about the one and true righteous path. You knew a guy like that would have to see the wholes in Jesus's wrists and feet to believe in Christ's resurrection. But let's look at the question part by part. First, Thomas addresses Jesus by the title "Lord". You know, as in the good Lord helps those who help themselves. The Lord of all creation, the Lord Almighty, and the Lord of our lives. Thomas freely chose to admit Jesus was his Lord, his Savior. I would hope to think that we would all do the same in the presence of Christ.
Now to the second part of Thomas's question. "We don't know where you are going." Hmmm, what is the context of that? For the answer, we have to go back to John 13:1. "1It was just before the Passover Feast. Jesus knew that the time had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he now showed them the full extent of his love." Ah, before Thomas's question, there was the Lord's Supper. Judas Iscariot had left the table, on his way to betray Jesus. Jesus informs Simon Peter that the Rock will deny Jesus three times before the cock crows. Jesus then broke the bread and poured the wine. Jesus then tells his disciples that he has prepared a place for them, and that his disciples knew where he was going. Except, doubting Thomas had no idea where his Lord was going. So he did what all good doubters think to do: They ask the question.
Thomas: How can we know the way?
Jesus: By knowing me.
Jesus: I am the way
Jesus: the truth
Jesus: and the life.
Jesus: No one comes to the Father but through me.
Jesus: If you really knew me,
Jesus: you would know my Father as well.
Jesus: From now on,
Jesus: you do know him and have seen him.
Once Thomas speaks up, Phillip does too. And this leads to John 15, one of the most brilliant passages in the Bible (and the source of the MasterLife Bible Study). You see, there always has to be that first person to ask the question to open up the discussion. I often found that I was that person in the BSU, saying exactly what was on everyone's mind. Except, it gets taxing to always be looked upon to come up with the contrarian view. It's not that I mind doing that, it's that I get tired of people misunderstanding me.
I DO NOT REVEL IN ALWAYS BEING THE FIRST ONE TO SPEAK OR ASK A QUESTION!!!
Ok, random digression time. There was this one leadership team meeting we had in the BSU. I came in late so I missed the crucial first five minutes where our director told us in no uncertain terms that we had disappointed him. The previous meeting, we had discussed what we wanted the FOCUS lunch to be, our weekly Wednesday gathering. A lot of people felt like we had ironically "lost focus", as only believers came to FOCUS. Our leadership team hit the nail on the head: The lunch was designed for believers, not for nonbelievers. What I am saying is that coming to a lunch to hear some random guy speak after a meal smacks of church. And the reason most nonbelievers don't go the church is because they had a bad experience in church. Our leadership team understood that we had to change to a more lightweight message just to draw people in and then share the message at a Bible study or something.
Our director is a fabulous man. Let me get that straight, I respect the man a lot. That's because he's a lot like me. He didn't grow up in a traditional Christian household and he didn't get saved until he was in college. His pursuit of a Christlike woman led him to accept Christ as his Lord and Savior. He speaks well and knows how to get things done. He's been willing to answer my most penetrating questions. He knows how to have a good time and when to stop the party. He's really an awesome guy.
But our director's also like me in that we share one flaw: We think we are right, and everyone else is wrong (this leads to some interesting conversations). And in this case, our director believed that FOCUS should be focused on God. He basically told us that there would be no weak@$$ messages in the BSU. We should not be afraid to share the good news of Christ. To not do so would be heresy. He expected us to understand that. And this is where I come in.
Our director asked us, does anyone have a problem with that? Silence. Dead Silence. Dead, uncomfortable silence. Dead, uncomfortable, oh-God-please-someone-speak-up silence. Dead, uncomfortable, oh-God-please-someone-speak-up, let's-all-shift-our-eyes-towards-D2-and-hope-the-confident-pessimist-speaks silence. Fine, you cowards. I'll say something.
D2: I'm not exactly sure where you are coming from Steve.
Steve: Alright, Daniel, speak up.
D2: Let me play a little devil's advocate here. You want us to stay focused in FOCUS?
Steve: Yes, I want you to remember that we are to focus on God and spreading the gospel.
D2: Hmmm, okay I understand that in the abstract. But could you make that more concrete for me?
Steve: Well, for example, we should be filling up the BSU every FOCUS. Our leaders should be inviting lost friends every week. If our leaders did that, other people would pick up the cue and do the same thing. We have more than enough power to field twice the number of people (I believe it was sixty) we are now.
D2: I see, that is a good vision to have. But, I have a concern. What if I ask someone to FOCUS to go to lunch with me, but then they hate me because I "tricked" them into going to a church type thing?
Steve: Just be straightforward. Say you want to invite them to a lunch and that there will be a short devotional at that time. Anybody would understand that hint. If they do not want to come, they will just say no. Then at least you know you have done God's will.
D2: Hmmm, okay. That makes it much more concrete for me.
Steve: Any other questions? No? I think Daniel probably asked the questions that were on all of your minds. Thank you for speaking up Daniel. Remember, the one who is in us is greater than the one who is in this world. In Jesus Christ we have victory.
The thing was, that's not what I really wanted to say. I really wanted to say that while Steve did make it more concrete, he was wrong. My comrades on leadership team had told him that the current format was not going to work. And yet, FOCUS was not going to change from its lunch and Bible message format. I knew then that FOCUS was not going to change to suddenly attract nonbelievers. God just does not work like that. Perhaps, right there and then, D2 realized he was a bit of a heretic as he understood the psychology of nonbelievers. Maybe D2 didn't believe in God himself anymore that day. Or maybe D2 was just being pessimistic and trying to create a self fulfilling prophecy that FOCUS would fail to attract nonbelievers.
Only God knows.
Back to John 14:6, is Jesus the only way? Yes. If you believe the Bible is God's Word, you must accept the fact that Jesus is the only way. No. There is no arguing that. There is, however, room for interpretation. Huh? D2, it's pretty much black and white. Thomas asked the question, Jesus gave the answer. Thomas asked how to get to heaven, and Jesus replied that Jesus himself was the only way. D2, don't you think it's obvious what the only way to get to heaven is?
I ask you this, then. What did Jesus say the greatest commandment was? The first and greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. What about the second greatest commandment? Love your neighbor as yourself. Very good, you read your Bible often.
Now, um, where did it say that Jesus was the only way again? Oh, look, it didn't. No, you can contrive the two greatest commandments to fit the philosophy that Jesus is the only way, but that type of reasoning fails to my superior logic. What I am saying is there's a reason Jesus Christ focused on those two particular commandments.
You know, in the MasterLife Bible study I learned what it meant to be a true disciple of Christ. You must first deny yourself, then take up your cross, and follow Christ daily. The first part is rejecting who you are, so that Christ can take control. Taking up your cross means being willing to suffer the slings and arrows of the world when you do proclaim your faith in Christ. The third means to remain in God's Word and pray everyday. I also learned how to give my testimony. In giving our testimony, we are to avoid churchy words like "walked down the aisle" or "saved" or "Jesus is my Savior". Why? Those words fail to resonate with those outside the church. Enter the mind of a nonbeliever and ask what he or she wants to know. He or she wants to know about how a believer lived before and after the accepted Christ. If they see that a believer reveals Christ, then they will be opened up to receive the Word of God.
MasterLife also dealt with the relationships between believers. For one thing, the male-female relationships were always tricky. Does this girl like me because she answered a question about the Bible when I was most vulnerable to the attacks of Satan? Or was she just being nice and playing the role of good Christian sister? It's probably the latter, but isn't she awfully cute when she's explaining how to admonish a Christian brother who has fallen away from his faith? We admonish one on one, but if that doesn't work we must bring a friend. If two or three does not work, more friends need to be brought. And if that is not enough, the whole church community must be called upon to admonish him. If that does not work, only God can save him then. Perhaps God will have to send an angel his way to correct his course.
Let me make an obvious statement. A disciple of Christ believes that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven. I honestly think that is a necessity for a disciple of Christ. If you do not believe that, you cannot call yourself a disciple of Christ. I consider myself a disciple of Christ, yet I am a heretic. How can that be?
I believe that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven for those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior. Once you accept Jesus Christ as your Divine Savior, you must believe Jesus is the only way to heaven. I truly believe, as a disciple of Christ, that Jesus is the only way to Heaven. BUT, and this is a big BUT, that's not the most important thing. It's not, because Jesus said so himself. It is more important for people to love God, even a false god, as long as they acknowledge him. Secondly, it is very important to treat your neighbors kindly, that is to be tolerant of one another. We all have to live together, so we all might as well live together peacefully.
You see, the fact that Jesus is the only way to heaven is a very small matter, very trivial. It would be like knowing that there are 66 books in the Bible. It would be like knowing who Rahab is in the Bible. It would be like understanding that there is an Apocrypha to the Bible and knowing that the Council of Nicea made the Bible what it is today. Thomas and I care about the little things, because the little things matter to us. We're just brave enough to admit that and ask our Lord and Savior those trivial questions. Think of any normal conversation, you first ask how someone is doing. Fine. Then the second question is inevitable what they are up to? If you're like me, your most common answer is "not much." And that is precisely the point.
Saying Jesus is the only way to heaven is not saying much at all.
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no subject
Date: 2005-12-20 12:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-12-20 12:23 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-12-20 12:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-12-20 12:47 pm (UTC)Columbus. 1492. America. Plymouth. England. Colonies. Revolution. Independence. States. Constitution. Federalism. Washington. Adams. Jefferson. Hamilton. Burr. Madison. 1812. Tocqueville. Monroe. Doctine. Adams. Jackson. Tears. Kinderhook. Harrison. Tyler. Polk. Taylor. Fillmore. Pierce. Buchanan. Gay. Lincoln. Succession. Johnson. Reconstruction. Grant. Hayes. Garfield. Arthur. Cleveland. Harrison. Cleveland. McKinley. Roosevelt. Stick. Taft. Fat. Wilson. WWI. Harding. Teapot. Coolidge. Business. Hoover. Dam. Roosevelt. Polio. Truman. Containment. Eisenhower. WWII. Kennedy. Cuba. Johnson. Vietnam. Nixon. Watergate. Ford. Amnesty. Carter. Peanuts. Reagan. Voodoo. Bush. Iraq. Clinton. Lewinsky. W. Terrorism.
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Date: 2005-12-20 12:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-12-20 01:11 pm (UTC)I konw many Christians refuse to consider these issues. To do so would be heresy. But I'm a heretic now so I am free to discuss these things. :D
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Date: 2005-12-20 02:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-12-20 02:26 pm (UTC)"Daniel, this is good, but you could stand to cut off four or five pages..."
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Date: 2005-12-20 01:21 pm (UTC)Thomas asked so many questions that the Gnostics decided he was the wisest of the apostles and centered much of their faith on his actions. Saint Thomas Christians are known for their devotion to Christ, knowledge and tolerance. The Mar Thoma Church is in full communion with the Anglican Church, which I believe you've expressed interest in.
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Date: 2005-12-20 01:58 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-12-20 01:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-12-20 01:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-12-20 02:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-12-20 02:06 pm (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2005-12-20 02:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-12-20 02:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-12-20 03:40 pm (UTC)"17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."
Does this mean that there are going to be good, loving, tenacious people out there who are condemned simply because they choose not to believe in "God's one and only Son."?
no subject
Date: 2005-12-20 04:06 pm (UTC)*wields his heretic pitchfork*
Think about this. What about my ancestors who never heard a smack of the Word of God because they had the misfortune of living half a world away at the time the Savior was born? Did they go to hell or not?
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Date: 2005-12-20 04:16 pm (UTC)I have always wondered about people who have never had the opportunity to hear the Word of God. Will God send them to hell simply because they had the misfortune of never hearing about Him? I'd like to think that the Lord would extend His mercy in that case and take them to Heaven anyway, but I don't know. That's something that is solely between God and them.
What truly matters is what is between you and God. While you're walking with God, is there anything you can do for your ancestors? Or do you just have to leave it in God's hands and allow Him to judge them according to His ultimate plan?
And just on a side note, do you think those same ancestors would want you to question your faith simply on their behalf?
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From:I can't beleve you're making me work....
From:Re: I can't beleve you're making me work....
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Date: 2005-12-20 04:16 pm (UTC)The idea is that people who never heard of Jesus, but who lived good lives, would have wanted to be baptised and believe in Jesus when they would have heard of him. As such, they would be admitted to heaven through the 'baptism of desire'.
Note that this only applies to people who have never heard of Jesus -- if you heard of him but do not believe, you're condemned anyway.
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Date: 2005-12-20 04:09 pm (UTC)Secondly, Jesus said to love THE Lord, not A lord. In the Greek that means a specific one, not the idea of one. Jesus is saying that you must love (literally) THE God, not any god, not a false god, but JHVH, the one and only God. The Greek is pretty specific on that one. The first commandment is to love specifically the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
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Date: 2005-12-20 04:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-12-20 04:19 pm (UTC)And no, good deeds themselves don't get you into heaven either (see
So, rejoice: you can be an utter asshat and still get into heaven! How cool is that?
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Date: 2005-12-20 06:08 pm (UTC)and exactly when and where did the idea of Jesus as human sacrifice for sins come in? Was it part of the original Christians' beliefs? Or did it originate with the Pauline and Pseudopauline epistles?
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Date: 2005-12-20 09:48 pm (UTC)And frankly, regarding the whole forbidding human sacrifice, I think you'll note that He was specifically forbidding sacrifice of your children to Baal. Generally speaking, human sacrifice wouldn't be adequate for God because there is no such thing as an innocent human... until Jesus came along.
I would just like to add that I appreciate your informed argument and that you have a solid basis of what you're arguing against.