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greybetaSo, Friday afternoon, I was having one of those religious discussions over some smoothies Friday afternoon with a good friend of mine. She tried to convince me the error of my heresies. She spoke true from her heart, and yet her words failed to convince me.
They say that those who do not have faith cannot understand.
But I do understand. That's because the reason I believe God and the reason that I am a heretic are one and the same: My faith is based on the actions of people, both good and evil.
The reason I am a heretic is because I do not base my belief on the Bible. Too often, people use circular logic when it comes to their faith.
Why do you believe Jesus came to save us? Because the Bible told me so.
Why do you believe the Bible is God's Word? Because Jesus told me so.
I can't really argue against that type of reasoning. So all I can do is tell you some thoughts that I've never been able to wrap my mind around.
Sure, I'll concede to you that the Bible is a revealed text. But I believe the true power of daily Bible reading isn't in studying God's Word. Let me suggest to you that the power of daily Bible reading is creating a daily routine in your life, and most people operate better on a daily routine. It's even better when you memorize Scripture because those kinds of skills are often forgotten in this day of age (but who needs to remember how to spell when you have spellcheck?).
Sure, I'll concede to you that prayer is powerful. But I beleve the true power of prayer isn't in making of litany of requests. Let me suggest to you that the power of prayer is keeping people and events close to your heart, and most people operate better if they have a sense of calm and relief. It's even better when you write your prayer requests because you can see God working through your life when your requests are answered (so if they are not answered, the prayer was either not in God's will or God answered in a way that was different from what you were expecting).
Sure, I'll concede to you that fellowship is fun. But I believe the true power of fellowship isn't in making friends. Let me suggest to you that the power of fellowship is discovering people who hold ideals and beliefs similar to yours, as most birds of a feather flock together. It's even better when you open to each other because then you are displaying the true bond of fellowship (and growing not only in friendship but also spiritually as well).
Sure, I'll concede to you that witnessing brings many lost souls over to the good Lord. But I believe the true power of witnessing isn't in reclaiming lost souls. Let me suggest to you that the power of witnessing is spreading something that you have become enamored with, just like any parent wants to talk the world about their baby. It's even better when you have someone who become a disciple themselves because then you are truly multiplying yourself as Christ commanded (for you are like a city on a hill that cannot be hidden).
After saying these things, my good friend calmly stated that I was going to hell.
I wish she could tell me something that I don't already know.
But that's the funny things about heretics: they don't believe they are going to hell.
They say that those who do not have faith cannot understand.
But I do understand. That's because the reason I believe God and the reason that I am a heretic are one and the same: My faith is based on the actions of people, both good and evil.
The reason I am a heretic is because I do not base my belief on the Bible. Too often, people use circular logic when it comes to their faith.
Why do you believe Jesus came to save us? Because the Bible told me so.
Why do you believe the Bible is God's Word? Because Jesus told me so.
I can't really argue against that type of reasoning. So all I can do is tell you some thoughts that I've never been able to wrap my mind around.
Sure, I'll concede to you that the Bible is a revealed text. But I believe the true power of daily Bible reading isn't in studying God's Word. Let me suggest to you that the power of daily Bible reading is creating a daily routine in your life, and most people operate better on a daily routine. It's even better when you memorize Scripture because those kinds of skills are often forgotten in this day of age (but who needs to remember how to spell when you have spellcheck?).
Sure, I'll concede to you that prayer is powerful. But I beleve the true power of prayer isn't in making of litany of requests. Let me suggest to you that the power of prayer is keeping people and events close to your heart, and most people operate better if they have a sense of calm and relief. It's even better when you write your prayer requests because you can see God working through your life when your requests are answered (so if they are not answered, the prayer was either not in God's will or God answered in a way that was different from what you were expecting).
Sure, I'll concede to you that fellowship is fun. But I believe the true power of fellowship isn't in making friends. Let me suggest to you that the power of fellowship is discovering people who hold ideals and beliefs similar to yours, as most birds of a feather flock together. It's even better when you open to each other because then you are displaying the true bond of fellowship (and growing not only in friendship but also spiritually as well).
Sure, I'll concede to you that witnessing brings many lost souls over to the good Lord. But I believe the true power of witnessing isn't in reclaiming lost souls. Let me suggest to you that the power of witnessing is spreading something that you have become enamored with, just like any parent wants to talk the world about their baby. It's even better when you have someone who become a disciple themselves because then you are truly multiplying yourself as Christ commanded (for you are like a city on a hill that cannot be hidden).
After saying these things, my good friend calmly stated that I was going to hell.
I wish she could tell me something that I don't already know.
But that's the funny things about heretics: they don't believe they are going to hell.
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no subject
Date: 2006-02-06 04:30 pm (UTC)Why is the phrase "You're going to hell" tossed around so much nowadays? I mean, never in my life have I seen someone be "damned" by a peer and suddenly burst out, "OH! I'm going to Hell??!? No! That can't be! Please, save my soul, quickly, before I go there!"
Is it just that it's kind of stale (A dozen centuries of use or so), or is it something more fundamental than that?
I'm going to go hug a tree. Yes, in that way.
no subject
Date: 2006-02-07 05:35 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-06 08:02 pm (UTC)Seen from this light, reading the bible regularly would help to put a person back on the middle road, as it were, and help them to cope better with things.
(Campbell explains this way, way better than I can. The concepts seem so simple after I read them, but they're so hard to articulate clearly.)
no subject
Date: 2006-02-07 05:35 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-07 03:39 pm (UTC)Friend of JFargo's here
Date: 2006-02-06 09:37 pm (UTC)I'm a friend of JFargo's and felt compelled to stop by here after reading your entry. As a man who is religious I can't help but think of my own circular logic that I still tend to stump folks on.
Three simple statements and the conclusion that has arrived from that has caused me to re-examine my own faith. What are the statements?
God is perfect, correct?
God made man in his own image, correct?
Man is inherently flawed, correct?
Ergo, God is flawed.
I spent a great deal thinking about that (along with the, "can god create a rock so big that even he could not lift it" or the, "Can god create a square circle" questions) but I realized something.
I can sit down and argue semantics or logic with someone and show them point-by-point where they are wrong. But with faith you cannot argue against that. If someone believes, then that's that. You can attempt to argue against them but in essence that is the trump card.
I consider myself religious, and I believe myself to be of good, moral standards. I go to church almost every Sunday to boot. But that doesn't mean that I'll follow a preacher's advice if I don't think it is right, whether it be an interpretation or mis-understanding. I've been known to discuss at length some things I disagree with my own pastor and he and I still don't see eye-to-eye on certain issues. But I believe in my heart what's right is guided by god, and if not? Well, it does state that God is the most merciful, and once you've accepted JC as your savior that you are saved. So, in my mind, if you've done that...anything after is just gravy.
Just my two cents.
Re: Friend of JFargo's here
Date: 2006-02-06 10:04 pm (UTC)God made man in his own image, correct?
Man is inherently flawed, correct?
Ergo, God is flawed.
Yes, God is perfect. Yes, God made man in His own image. Is man flawed? Not as designed, no. Man was given free will and, sadly, used that free will to choose to sin against God. God is not made to be flawed or less than perfect due to the choices of the created.
Re: Friend of JFargo's here
Date: 2006-02-07 05:24 pm (UTC)Daniel, you're not going to hell. I can not believe that. I honestly can't. If God is the type to send you to hell because you believe what you just stated, then I don't want to be in heaven. Honestly. I've had to think a great deal about faith in the last three years. What with my realizing I'm gay and all. I finally realized that I was made this way, and if God was going to damn me for his own creation (and this includes the idea that I became this way from circumstances (abuse, my mom not being around, what have you)) then I didn't want to be around him. I did not choose this harder life, it was thrust upon me. I begged on my knees for it to go away. God said no. So God obviously has a bit more to say about life and humans than we humans thought. :D
Oh' and Daniel, I'd really love to get together some time and have a religious discussion.
Re: Friend of JFargo's here
Date: 2006-02-07 05:34 pm (UTC)If you can ever track me down when I am on AIM, I'd be more than happy to discuss all sorts of things with you. The trick is finding me on AIM when I'm actually in front of a non-school computer.
Re: Friend of JFargo's here
Date: 2006-02-07 08:29 pm (UTC)Yet because of this free will mankind was sinned, and god gave us free will so he is essentially responsible. He is God after all and could foresee the conclusions of our own inadequacies. Knowing this, he still allowed us to have free will and choose the path of sin. Everyone who is born is not without sin.
But fundamentally, it doesn't matter how you argue it. It comes down to faith, which is the point I was trying to reiterate.
Re: Friend of JFargo's here
Date: 2006-02-07 08:48 pm (UTC)Your argument still does not follow. God is not responsible for our choices. Why did God create beings and give them the ability to choose to sin against Him? To really know, I suppose you would have to get into heaven and ask Him. I have my own thoughts about it but they are merely my own opinion.
Re: Friend of JFargo's here
Date: 2006-02-07 09:50 pm (UTC)To you, perhaps. To me, it makes all the sense it needs to make. That is the point tho, to make us think, to make us realize what it is that we are seeking. To question that which we cannot argue logically. We could go for a bit and quote scripture back and forth, but I've found through my own studies, and those in my classes in which we studied the bible itself, that even then each line is subject to interpretation. In the end, we must accept the truth as we see it, and trust in God after that.
-- Why did God create beings and give them the ability to choose to sin against Him? To really know, I suppose you would have to get into heaven and ask Him. --
Exactly, if you're at all familiar with religious history you'll know of the different types of angels and the differences between them and mankind. We are the chosen, able to view god in all his glory once we have transcended to heaven.
-- I have my own thoughts about it but they are merely my own opinion. --
Many people do not agree with my interpretation of heaven, but no one person is right or wrong the way I see it. In truth, the only way to know is to experience it, and to do so would result in our mortal self to cease existence on this plane. Thus no one can claim to 'know' exactly what occurs after death. We must instead rely on faith.
Personally? I have a unique blend of Eastern belief twisted with Christianity, that ties in reincarnation and karma as part of the process. Otherwise, why would we continue to learn, and improve as christians after we've come to accept JC as our salvation? Shouldn't we in theory be as good as we need to become at that point of our religious awareness?
My own thoughts are that even as acceptances of God we are not fully capable of comprehending the wholeness of his power. Thus we continue to grow in our spirituality not only to ensure our own ability to view him, but in a means for him to continually test us to ensure that we are living up to what he expects of us.
Re: Friend of JFargo's here
Date: 2006-02-07 08:57 pm (UTC)The bible has a fair amount to say about sexual impurity. This includes promiscuity by heterosexuals as well as a ban against homosexuality. I do not deny that a person can find themselves attracted to a person of the same sex. The trick is being obedient to God and denying that desire. I have a very good friend who is attracted to people of the same sex but, because of her faith, she does not act on that attraction.
Myself, I'm attracted to more than one woman. I've had opportunity and desire to have relations with more than one woman since I've been married. I've come dangerously close to indulging that desire - I know how hard it is to refuse it. But God has told us what His desire is for us and leaves it to us to choose to be obedient or not.
I pray that I can manage obedience. The flesh is weak and wants many things but, with the help of God, the flesh can be overcome.