The Republic has fallen

[greybeta]

In the last days of the Republic, its leaders became more and more corrupt. The Republic waged wars for personal gain and profit instead of protecting its citizens. The people had lost their moral way, with no direction. And so the downfall of the Republic was inevitable, so the conventional story of the last days of the Roman Republic went.

Julius Caesar, Gnaeus Pompeius, and Marcus Crassus struggled to best each other. In their thirst for power, they maneuvered and backstabbed each other. History allows us the benefit of knowing Caesar won. But his victory against the two senior members of the triumvirate was not so clear to their contemporaries. But then, why did Caesar’s own soldiers turn on him after the deaths of Pompey and Crassus?

Caesar's men had fought to save the Republic, not let it crumble at the hands of a tyrant. But the dictator Caesar committed many atrocities that showed his low opinions for the traditions of Rome and the venerable Senate. Caesar flaunted his position by not even rising up to meet a member of the Senate.

Worse, Caesar disrespected the high offices of Rome. In the Roman Republic, the most powerful elected officials were the consuls, of which there were only two. Consuls held military commands and could not be put on trial while they held that office. They served for only a year, and traditionally they could not serve in that capacity again until several years had lapsed. But at the end of one year during Caesar's reign, one of the consuls died the day before elections. Caesar, in his infinite wisdom, appointed a consul for a day according to his dictatorial powers instead of letting the office remain empty.

Caesar had turned the consulship into a lollipop, to be given at his whim.

And there lies the rise of Brutus, Cassius, and the other conspirators. They could not respect a man who so easily dismissed the familiar forms of ancient Rome. The rest is history (or a well read Shakespearan play).

It would be another Caesar who would learn from the lessons of Julius and turn the Republic into Empire.

In today's terms, I guess one of the lessons that the United States learned is that certain high level positions in the government should not be given away. Hence, the need for filibusters.

Comments

[jeremyarc7.livejournal.com]

Also, Brutus was an officer of Pompey (or was it Crassus?) and in killing Caesar at the foot of the statue of Pompey, he was avenging his former leader.

[greybeta.livejournal.com]

Brutus did fight for Pompey, but Caesar forgave him. Plutarch makes Brutus out to be a son of Caesar in a way.

[culculhen.livejournal.com]

adopted son, and quite possible biologial son with a mistress. Brutus was a very respected politician and adopting a prodigy into the family was an old custum meant to strengthen the dynasty. it became also a route to being the Ceasar after augustus.

[cheesentoast.livejournal.com]

I don't usually stick my nose into these things, but...

The positions that are being held up by filibuster are not being given away. The president did not appoint them. He merely appointed nominees who are to be voted up or down by those that LEGALLY have the power to do so. Simply because a larger number of the people who can vote on the nominations agree with the president in no way makes the nomination an illegal or incorrect usage of political power.

Most of the people I talked to about the presidential election were perfectly aware that which ever president we had this term would be making these kinds of decisions. The people vote in Bush. They voted in their senators knowing that this was going to be the decision before their elected leaders. Should this issue have come up last term when it was questionable if Bush should be in office, I might agree with you. But it didn't. He was firmly voted in.

He's doing his job. The senators are doing their job. Filibustering to keep them from doing what they were elected to do is hindering that.

[greybeta.livejournal.com]

The story is more complex than that of course. I guess what I was getting at was that it's quite a bit more difficult to get your "own men" in our current democracy than it was in ancient Rome.

I know, I like making obvious points too much.

[cheesentoast.livejournal.com]

I'm just saying - It's not a tyrrany until the leader is not following his own rules. While he has broken some of them, this is not one of those times. :)

[culculhen.livejournal.com]

Filibustering is just as much part of a senators job as is a nomination and an up or down vote. there are a lot of checks and counter checks built in the system. singling one out saying that that one is hindering is putting the entire system in doubt, you can't have it both ways. If the president and the republican senators are doing there job so are the democratic senators.

[bonerici.livejournal.com]

read the fucking commentaries man, all is clearly stated by Caeser, his men were pissed off because they weren't gonna join in the raping and pillaging in africa, not because caeser was a dictator they could care less about that.

When he arrived there the sedition had been quieted, but another one sprang up against himself in the army because the promises made to them after the battle of Pharsalus had not been kept, and because they had been held in service beyond the term fixed by law. They demanded that they should be dismissed to their homes. Csar had made them certain indefinite promises at Pharsalus, and others equally indefinite after the war in Africa should be finished. Now he sent them a promise of 1000 drachmas more to each man. They answered him that they did not want any more promises but all cash down. Sallustius Crispus, who had been sent to them on this business, had a narrow escape. He would have been killed if he had not fled. When Csar learned of this he stationed the legion, with which Antony had been guarding the city, around his own house and the city gates, as he apprehended attempts at plunder. Then, notwithstanding all his friends were alarmed and cautioned him against the fury of the soldiers, he went boldly among them while they were still riotous in the Campus Martius, without sending word beforehand, and showed himself on the platform. The soldiers ran together tumultuously without arms, and, as was their custom, saluted their commander who had suddenly appeared among them. When he bade them tell what they wanted they were so surprised that they did not venture to speak openly of the donative in his presence, but they adopted the more moderate course of demanding their discharge from the service, hoping that, since he needed soldiers for the unfinished wars, he would speak about the donative himself. But, contrary to the expectation of all, he replied without hesitation, " I discharge you." Then, to their still greater astonishment, and while the silence was most profound, he added, "And I will give you all that I have promised when I have my triumph with others." At this expression, as unexpected as it was kind to them, shame immediately took possession of all, and reflection, together with jealousy at the thought of their abandoning their commander in the midst of such great wars and of others joining in the triumph instead of themselves, and of their losing the gains of the war in Africa, which were expected to be great, and becoming enemies of Csar himself as well as of the opposite party. Moved by these fears they remained still more silent and embarrassed, hoping that Csar would yield and change his mind on account of his immediate necessity. But he remained silent also, until his friends urged him to say something more to them and not leave his old comrades of so many campaigns with a short and austere word. Then he began to speak, addressing them first as "citizens," not "fellow-soliders," which implied that they were already discharged from the army and were private individuals. They could endure it no longer, but cried out that they repented of what they had done, and besought him to keep them in his service. But Csar turned away and was leaving the platform when they shouted with greater eagerness and urged him to stay and punish them for their misdeeds. He delayed a while longer, not going away and not turning back, but pretending to be undecided. At length he came back and said that he would not punish any of them, but that he was grieved that even the tenth legion, to which he had always given the first place of honor, should join in such a riot. "And this legion alone," he continued, "I will discharge from the service. Nevertheless, when I return from Africa I will give them all that I have promised. And when the wars are ended I will give lands to all, not as Sulla did by taking it from the present holders and colonizing the takers among the losers, and making them everlasting enemies to each other, but I will give the public land, and my own, and will purchase what may be needful." There was clapping of hands and joyful acclaim on all sides, but the tenth legion was plunged in grief because to them alone Csar appeared inexorable

[greybeta.livejournal.com]

The commentaries are excellent pieces of writing. But they are only part of the puzzle to why some of Caesar's trusted lieutenants turned on him.

[renough.livejournal.com]

I hold my head in my hand as when I first read Republic, I thought you were starting an essay on Episode 3...

[cheesentoast.livejournal.com]

I did too. :P

[greybeta.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm sure Lucas did some reading up on Caesar at some point in his life. ;)

[bonerici.livejournal.com]

i can never forget that when the founding fathers talked about "the republic" they meant one and only one thing, the roman republic, from 500 bc to 49 bc when Caeser crossed the Rubicon.

Jefferson, Washington, Franklin, Adams, Hamilton, constantly thought about the Roman republic, they read and re-read the speaches of Cicero.

Star Wars is just a bad cartoon to me.

Even in the roman republic they had a house for senators, and a house for plebians, the same division that we have today in our senate and house, they had counsels (dual ones) where we have a president and vice-president. The Romans had an elaborate legal system.

You tell me where the Star Wars republic is derived from, all I can think of is maybe it's based on comic books.

[greybeta.livejournal.com]

Any time a Western oriented scholar writes the word Republic, one cannot help but think back to the Roman Republic. Due to the thought that senators killed Caesar, people tend to remember the Senate with its grand traditions more than anything else. The details, however, are fuzzy.

Dunno, the Star Wars republic is probably based on Nebraska or something.

[bonerici.livejournal.com]

one more thing there is ONE and ONLY ONE reason for the fall of the republic, if you study the history texts it all becomes crystal clear.

It has nothing to do with the degeneracy of the times (oh you hear this all the time, how back in the "good old days" people were good christians -- or as the Romans said, used to be good pagans), it has nothing to do with corruption, corruption exists in EVERY age in every time, it has nothing to do with power mad senators it has to do with one thing and one thing only:

Legions used to get their paycheck from the senate. Caeser's multi-year expeditions to Gaul changed that, because Caeser paid the legions out of his own pocket from plunder. When the legions no longer returned each year to farm their fields and became professionals whos paycheck came directly from the general in the field and not from the senate the stage was set for the transition of power from the senate to the generals.

Very simple. George Bush could go to the head of the troops today and say "FOLLOW ME" and the soldier wouldn't follow. Bush ain't signing his name on their checks the American people are, so the american soldiers have a vested interest in doing the will of the american people that's it.

It works the same in any nation. Soldiers will follow whoever pays them. As long as we the people pay our soldiers our democracy is safe from military overthrow unlike in the last days of the roman republic.

We are in a lot more danger from Germany's example, where the people in a democracy voluntarily allow themselves to be led by a fascist government.

Luckily Hitler happened recently enough in time that it's somewhat vaccinated us against this problem . . . at least for now.

[greybeta.livejournal.com]

We follow Augustus's reforms. As you say, soldiers had to rely on their general to receive their booty. But, Augustus had the excellent idea of creating a sort of pension plan for soldiers so they were obligated to the state. Ideas that work tend to stick around.

When we have bad economic times, pride in an imperial past, and a few million scapegoats, we'll be in trouble.

[adigitalpimp.livejournal.com]

I will be posting a lengthy response to this in my own journal, if just because Caesar is my favorite historical figure of all time, and I can't help but talk about him given the slightest chance or excuse....I encourage you to read it and reply to it when its posted, most likely tomorrow.

Note: There will probably be two posts. One was planned before reading this, in which Caesar is the context, the other will be a direct response to it.

[greybeta.livejournal.com]

I look forward to them.